Tim A
Posts 10
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Here's my list of the things I wish every Christian knew about their religion and the Bibl, but few of them do. Got any others?
Most modern scholars (both Christian and non-Christian) agree to the following points:
1) The Gospel stories (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were not written until anywhere from 20-40 years after the time of Jesus' death.
2) The Gospels were not written by apostles or other eyewitnesses. The names of the Gospels do not refer to the names of the authors. The real authors are unknown. The names were assigned by the early Christian church as a matter of "tradition".
3) The Gospels were not written in the order they appear in the Bible. Mark was actually written first, followed by Matthew and Luke, then John.
4) Mark, the earliest Gospel, says nothing about a virgin birth, nor of a resurrection.
5) Matthew and Luke, the later Gospels, copy a great deal of their source material directly from Mark. They then augment (or embellish) the story with additional details, including the birth and resurrection.
6) There were numerous accounts of Jesus, with many conflicting stories. In 325 at the Council of Nicea, early church elders voted on which gospel stories would be included in the New Testament.
7) Early Christian sects were regarded as little more than cults for almost 300 years. It wasn't until the conversion of the Roman emperor Constantine that this changed. He not only ended persecution of Christians, but declared it the official state religion.
8) The teaching the Jesus and God are one and the same was not decided upon until the council of Nicea. Everyone in attendance agreed – because they were threatened with excommunication and exile otherwise. In typical church fashion, they then burned all known writings that were contradictory to this teaching.
9) The only books of the New Testament whose authorship is not in doubt is a handful of the epistles written by Paul. What's interesting about Paul's writings is that he doesn't seem to hold the view that Jesus lived in human form.
Feel free to comment on my list, or add your own!
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hatsoff
Posts 3
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Tim A wrote:
Here's my list of the things I wish every Christian knew about their religion and the Bibl, but few of them do. Got any others?
You're on the right track, here, but this list needs some corrections. If I may...
Tim A wrote:
Most modern scholars (both Christian and non-Christian) agree to the following points:
Christian/Biblical scholarship is almost evenly divided between conservative and liberal camps. The conservatives, naturally, defend issues like eyewitness authorship of the Gospels and authenticity of the general Epistles. Only liberals (many of whom are Christians) acknowledge the following facts.
Tim A wrote:
1) The Gospel stories (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were not written until anywhere from 20-40 years after the time of Jesus' death.
2) The Gospels were not written by apostles or other eyewitnesses. The names of the Gospels do not refer to the names of the authors. The real authors are unknown. The names were assigned by the early Christian church as a matter of "tradition".
3) The Gospels were not written in the order they appear in the Bible. Mark was actually written first, followed by Matthew and Luke, then John.
All this is very probably true. But of course a "probably" needs to be added to each point.
Tim A wrote:
4) Mark, the earliest Gospel, says nothing about a virgin birth, nor of a resurrection.
The Resurrection is mentioned in Mark 16:6. You seem to be thinking of post-Resurrection appearances, stories of which the Gospel of Mark lacks.
Tim A wrote:
5) Matthew and Luke, the later Gospels, copy a great deal of their source material directly from Mark.
As before, a "probably" needs to be added here.
Tim A wrote:
They then augment (or embellish) the story with additional details, including the birth and resurrection.
They embellish the story with infancy narratives and stories of post-Resurrection appearances. The Resurrection, as mentioned above, is indeed discussed in Mark.
Tim A wrote:
6) There were numerous accounts of Jesus, with many conflicting stories.
This is true exactly as stated.
Tim A wrote:
In 325 at the Council of Nicea, early church elders voted on which gospel stories would be included in the New Testament.
This is completely false. It's an unfortunate misconception which has been around for many years.
Tim A wrote:
7) Early Christian sects were regarded as little more than cults for almost 300 years. It wasn't until the conversion of the Roman emperor Constantine that this changed. He not only ended persecution of Christians, but declared it the official state religion.
This too is false--another common misconception. Constantine made Christianity legal with the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, but it was not made the state religion until 380 AD, when Theodosius I declared it to be so.
As for early Christians being considered cultists, I'm not sure what you mean by that. The concept of a cult is modern idea.
Tim A wrote:
8) The teaching the Jesus and God are one and the same was not decided upon until the council of Nicea. Everyone in attendance agreed – because they were threatened with excommunication and exile otherwise. In typical church fashion, they then burned all known writings that were contradictory to this teaching.
This is somewhat true, but needs to be clarified. A belief in the divinity of Jesus dates back at least to the late first century, with the Gospel of John. This doctrine grew in popularity such that by 325 AD, it was widely dominant. That year, thanks to the freedom granted by the Edict of Milan, hundreds of Bishops from around the Christian world were able to come together in Nicea and codify a creed of orthodoxy. Chief among the issues was Arianism (AKA the divinity of Jesus). Arius taught that Jesus was of similar substance as God the Father, but not the same substance. The Nicene Bishops almost unanimously disagreed, and issued their creed. At the time, they were under no threat of exile or excommunication, whether or not they held to Arianism. Only after the Council had ended was affirmation of the Nicene Creed made compulsory. Arian supporters were given opportunity to recant, and although a few bishops were exiled, some reports suggest they were later recalled. Arius' books (not all books in conflict with Christian orthodoxy) were ordered burned.
Tim A wrote:
9) The only books of the New Testament whose authorship is not in doubt is a handful of the epistles written by Paul. What's interesting about Paul's writings is that he doesn't seem to hold the view that Jesus lived in human form.
This is false. Paul does not talk about Jesus' life very much, but what he says is not at all unusual. For example, in 1 Co 11, he talks about the betrayal and last supper. In 1 Cor 15, he mentions Jesus' death and burial (and his Resurrection, though of course that bit is not historical).
Tim A wrote:
Feel free to comment on my list, or add your own!
The number one thing for Christians to keep in mind is this: There is no good evidence that a supernatural disembodied mind exists, much less that it cares about humans, and sent itself in human form to perform ritual sacrifice to atone for human disobedience.
edited by hatsoff on 3/5/2009
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hatsoff
Posts 3
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Alexander wrote:
My $0.02.
I would have the first one read as "1) The Gospel stories (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were not written until anywhere from 20-40 years after the time of Jesus' alleged death."
After reading jesusneverexisted.com, I'm unconvinced there was a single person the gospel godman is based on. Instead, the story was based on several individuals, Jewish myths, earlier pagan religions, and outright fabrications.
Be careful of websites like that, which have clear agendas, and do not give citations by which to readily verify their claims.
Wikipedia usually makes a decent primer for this sort of thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
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